Thoughts for the Day

Quotes from Around the Web This Week

1. Confronting Deception

"Truth is an absolute defense against charges of libel and slander."

(Hicks)

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My Copy of "Quiverfull" Just Shipped...

I have no idea what to expect from "Quiverfull," save the intro from Amazon. I'm curious to see if there is any truth in the book. Sometimes the liberal press makes astute observations.

Product Description

A journalist’s investigation of a Christian Right movement in which women put their fertility in the service of a patriarchal culture war

Fundamentalist Christianity may lose some access to power in the next election, but it has long-term plans. In this fascinating look at the new generation of fundamentalist Christian women, journalist Kathryn Joyce introduces us to the world of the patriarchy movement and Quiverfull families. Here, in direct and conscious opposition to feminist calls for marital equity, women live within stringently enforced doctrines of wifely submission and male headship. Instead of raising independent daughters, these Christians advocate a return to keeping daughters at home—and out of college—until their marriage to a suitor approved by Dad. To counter reproductive rights, they eschew all contraception in favor of the Quiverfull philosophy of letting God give them as many children as possible—families of twelve and more children that will, they hope, enable them to win the religious and culture wars through demographic means.

Quiverfull is a fascinating examination of the twenty-first-century women and men who proclaim self-sacrifice and submission as model virtues of womanhood—and as warfare on behalf of Christ.

About the Author

Kathryn Joyce received her B.A. from Hampshire College and her M.A. in cultural reporting and criticism from New York University. Her freelance writing has appeared in The Nation, Mother Jones, Newsweek, The Massachusetts Review, and other publications. She has received support from The MacDowell Colony and The Nation Institute and is former managing editor of The Revealer, a daily review of religion and the media published by NYU's Center for Religion and Media, a Pew Charitable Trusts "Center of Excellence." She lives in New York City.


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Bypassing Scrutiny in Spiritual Abuse

Alan Tate Wood on "Inside the Head" of a new recruit:

These experiences, occurring often as they do within the highly charged, tightly controlled atmosphere of the cult, are not subjected to the kind critical scrutiny that they ordinarily would be. Instead they are metabolized and socialized within the language and doctrine of the cult. They are the occasion for increased approval from the group. Phenomenologically speaking, they initiate the "divine history" of the individual, and they reinforce the history and mythology of the group. What is perceived as a flash of illumination and liberation becomes, in fact, the first step in a march toward moral slavery and psychological bondage.

The successfully socialized cult member has entered a world in which submission to authority, blind obedience and conformity have supplanted such "outmoded" notions of character formation as the development of self-reliance, the capacity for critical thinking and the need for openness and compassion in human relationships. Successful indoctrination into a destructive cult results in the repudiation of the individual conscience, rejection of one's critical faculties and the colonization of the imagination understood as a supernatural experience.

Read more HERE at Rick Ross.com

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A Summary of Blog Posts About Kinist Racism in Patriocentricity and Vision Forum

Taunya Henderson continues her series on "The Marketing of the Titus 2 Woman," taking on the topic of racism and kinism.

I've already written a great deal on this topic, and I recently included the subject in a list of questions that I sent to Dr. Voddie Baucham after he agreed to answer my questions, all questions that remain unanswered.

For the benefit of the readers here, I will post a summary of my posts on kinism to make it easier to review them, a most unpleasant and depressing topic. I find kinism to be merely a convenient excuse for hatred and elitism, both of which are inconsistent with Christianity under the New and Better Covenant.

Introduction to Kinism

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Watch the Wave

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The Marks of a Cult

With the explosion of different sects that claim to honor and follow Jesus, how does one differentiate between true Biblical Christianity and an aberrant religious movement? Just what are "the marks of a cult?"


Marks Of A Cult from LuMeL on Vimeo.



Total is 23 minutes of a 2 hour Documentary you can purchase HERE from the Apologetics Group.
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A Summary of the Posts About Multigenerational Faithfulness

When I decided that to examine the loaded language term of “multigenerational faithfulness,” describing how Vision Forum and her affiliates refer to the term, I anticipated covering the concepts in just a few blog posts. Really... The ambiguous and nebulous term itself actually lacks substance in and of itself, so I did not anticipate that the term was indeed as loaded as it proved to be when I looked at exactly what they taught. I realized that the term was misleading, but I did not fully realize just how they used it to encapsulate so much of their core doctrine. Upon reviewing the downloadable sermons and written material available, I was quite surprised to realize just how much the term “multigenerational faithfulness” represents for Vision Forum and their affiliate teachers and supporters.

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Thoughts on Fear-Based Obedience: It is Hollow and not Holy

I love these Sandlins... And as I wind up the discussion of multigenerational faithfulness, I wanted to bring attention to what Pastor Andrew Sandlin wrote to me about this discussion as well as a new entry that his father, Pastor Richard Sandlin, just posted on his blog today.


Regarding following the New Covenant by virtue of living under the legalism of the Old Covenant standards:

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RC Sproul, Jr’s Take on Multigenerational Faithfulness: “When You Rise Up”

Before closing this discussion of multigenerational faithfulness, I would like to comment on RC, Jr’s book -- what he calls his “covenantal approach to homeschooling.” When searching online for the term, this book figures high on the list.


From a book excerpt on Amazon.com:

"While almost all Christian parents would agree with that statement, when the chalk meets the chalkboard, they live as if they care more about their children chalking up achievements and getting into a good college than cultivating humble obedience to God and encouraging a long-term vision of multi-generational faithfulness in their future families."

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First Time Obedience and Unquestioned Submission as an Essential Component of Multigenerational Faithfulness Part IV: Theological Concerns

Examining a few of the theological concerns of First Time Obedience and unquestioned submission, a necessary and essential component of multigenerational faithfulness.




From Pages 110 - 111 of Voddie Baucham’s “Family Driven Faith”:

An even tougher lesson to learn is the principle of first-time obedience... [Baucham offers an example of counting to three for compliance, suspending punishment until the counting concludes at three as inappropriate permissiveness.]

This is a difficult principle to understand because we overlook the punishment our sins deserve and ultimately received in the cross of Christ (or will receive during an eternity separated from God in hell). However, whether God smites us immediately as He did Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5) or appears to let it slide, we can rest assured that every sin receives just recompense (Romans 3:21-26). Thus, in the economy of God every act of disobedience is ultimately punished whether we see it immediately or not. That is why it is important to teach our children that every instruction is to be obeyed right away. As they get older, they may be allowed to enter into discussion about our instructions, but that discussion should follow an act of obedience, not determine whether or not they are convinced of our position...

We do not want our children to do what we say with conditions attached. We want them to obey, period. Learning not to repeat ourselves, not to yell, not to call the offending child by all three of his or her names, but to speak in clear, level tones and follow through... No, our children are not perfect, but they understand what obedience is and fully expect a consequence if they fall short of doing what they are told when they are told to do it.

Voddie Baucham on Corporal Punishment and Shyness in a Young Child from Under Much Grace on Vimeo.

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First Time Obedience and Multigenerational Faithfulness Part III: Poor Development of Analytical Thought and Problem-Solving Skills

Continuing the discussion of problems inherent in unquestioned obedience and "First Time Obedience" as a component of multigenerational faithfulness. Please refer to previous blog posts on the topic if you've not already read them.


From Page 110 - 111 of Voddie Baucham’s “Family Driven Faith”:

An even tougher lesson to learn is the principle of first-time obedience... [Baucham offers an example of counting to three for compliance, suspending punishment until the counting concludes at three as inappropriate permissiveness.]

This is a difficult principle to understand because we overlook the punishment our sins deserve and ultimately received in the cross of Christ (or will receive during an eternity separated from God in hell). However, whether God smites us immediately as He did Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5) or appears to let it slide, we can rest assured that every sin receives just recompense (Romans 3:21-26). Thus, in the economy of God every act of disobedience is ultimately punished whether we see it immediately or not. That is why it is important to teach our children that every instruction is to be obeyed right away. As they get older, they may be allowed to enter into discussion about our instructions, but that discussion should follow an act of obedience, not determine whether or not they are convinced of our position...

We do not want our children to do what we say with conditions attached. We want them to obey, period. Learning not to repeat ourselves, not to yell, not to call the offending child by all three of his or her names, but to speak in clear, level tones and follow through... No, our children are not perfect, but they understand what obedience is and fully expect a consequence if they fall short of doing what they are told when they are told to do it.

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PART II Addendum: Spiritualizing All Activities, First Time Obedience, Multigenerational Faithfulness and Unquestioned Obedience

I am a little amused this week, as I did not even intend to post anything about First Time Obedience in reference to multigenerational faithfulness, the code word for conformity within patriocentricity. Then, a few people asked me questions about Voddie Baucham’s online audio teachings about this issue of expectations from small children, all along the lines of “the breaking” of children through discipline. When I went to listen to a new audio of Baucham that I hadn’t yet heard, I noted that the message in this discipline oriented presentation differed little in content from his multigenerational faithfulness messages, and all of these issues were also addressed in his book. And I intended to pull out and comment on sections that I had already marked in his book when I read it about two months ago or so. I figured one blog post would take care of this aspect of multigenerational faithfulness...

How can men make 200 year plans, when I cannot manage to plan a blog post and make it work out as I intend? ;-)

And though I have worked through so much of these emotions and made peace with these aspects of my past, I am still amazed at how deeply this material still pierces into my own personal experiences. In yesterday’s blog post, I noted many families that I observed and those I know well who treated personality traits in their children as faults of sin. One particular young lady who I once carted around on my hip in whose personality I delight represents only one of many of these homeschooled kids. My friend, a mother of 7, says that I get to claim 2 of her children as my own if anyone asks, and I proudly claim this one daughter who I dearly love, lip ring and all. And there is good reason for this – that being that I am also one of those whose bore certain character traits that were treated as sin and error. My dear friend's daughter is much like me (sans lip ring).

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First Time Obedience and Unquestioned Submission as an Essential Component of Multigenerational Faithfulness Part II: Spiritualizing All Activities

Continuing on the topic of First Time Obedience
as a component of Multigenerational Faithfulness,
please make sure to read these previous posts HERE and HERE.

From Pages 110 - 111 of Voddie Baucham’s "Family Driven Faith”:

An even tougher lesson to learn is the principle of first-time obedience... [Baucham offers an example of counting to three for compliance, suspending punishment until the counting concludes at three as inappropriate permissiveness.]

This is a difficult principle to understand because we overlook the punishment our sins deserve and ultimately received in the cross of Christ (or will receive during an eternity separated from God in hell). However, whether God smites us immediately as He did Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5) or appears to let it slide, we can rest assured that every sin receives just recompense (Romans 3:21-26). Thus, in the economy of God every act of disobedience is ultimately punished whether we see it immediately or not. That is why it is important to teach our children that every instruction is to be obeyed right away. As they get older, they may be allowed to enter into discussion about our instructions, but that discussion should follow an act of obedience, not determine whether or not they are convinced of our position...

We do not want our children to do what we say with conditions attached. We want them to obey, period. Learning not to repeat ourselves, not to yell, not to call the offending child by all three of his or her names, but to speak in clear, level tones and follow through... No, our children are not perfect, but they understand what obedience is and fully expect a consequence if they fall short of doing what they are told when they are told to do it.

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First Time Obedience and Unquestioned Submission as an Essential Component of Multigenerational Faithfulness Part I: Parental Convenience

In this previous post, I alluded to Mark Driscoll’s quote in the New York Times which spoke of his “impatience for dissent” (as the article’s author noted), drawing particular attention to this comment: “They are sinning through questioning.” His comment marks a trend in the church, and one that has always been an element as long as men have been overseeing groups of people. I would like to blame it all on somewhat recent trends within the church as there have certainly been many where believers have focused on one aspect of the Gospel or another to a fault. Like stinking swamps that feed off of a river that flows with life and is teeming with life, there have always been pockets of the church that become isolated in unbalanced focus of irrelevance and stagnation. The leaders seek to preserve what was likely a singularly ideal moment in time in what God was doing in the past. These attempts to preserve what promises to be an utopian oasis of the past always seem to degrade into a system of sacerdotalism, the collectivistic manifestation of the works of the flesh.


Along with sarcedotalism, part of maintaining the utopian vision of the past involves submission as an act of humility which requires the suspension of credulity. If a required task involves doubt, all expression of that doubt must be sacrificed and yielded to God on the altar of humility, as any expression or indulgence of reasonable, rational incredulity becomes an expression of rebellious sin. One must follow the system of sacerdotalism, crucifying all rational doubts by putting unquestioned faith in one’s overseer or personal priest. On the Bill Gothard Discussion List (Yahoo Group), someone once described the test of devotion required by young men at what is known as Gothard’s “Northwoods Coumpound” that I believe is located in Wisconsin. The facility required young men to go outdoors in intense summer heat to sweep the paved roadway with brooms, all while wearing their regulation Gothard blue blazers and red ties. For one of these young men to suggest that their service might be better spent doing something more productive with a more pragmatic value (even weeding a garden, for example which would still subject them to the trial of the summer heat) would be seen as rebellion against God Himself which thwarts one’s efforts to accumulate grace. Effectively, based upon Gothard’s bizarre redefinition of grace, the game of life requires that Christians earn and accumulate grace (favor and a type of power to resist sin merited by good works), especially through acts of humility that require the suspension of reason as a leap of faith.

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Notes from a Chat Between Andrew Sandlin and John Frame Discussing the Emergent Church

I found this in my Inbox this morning with 

"Cindy, note" as the subject line.

It went online on Andrew Sandlin's blog on February 8th , 2009.

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The Selfish Sin of Shyness: A Deterrent to Multigenerational Faithfulness

Because of the Gothard influence of ecclesiocentricity within Vision Forum’s theology and practice (more in practice in participating churches than in documented theory), multigenerational faithfulness also revolves around submission to elders among adults of all ages, but it is also extended to children under their idolatry of family. Vision Forum essentially just takes Bill Gothard’s teachings to greater extremes, but very little of it offers something new. The only new aspects of these “new ideas” are the loaded language phrases and “wonder word” concepts that the masters of spin wrap around the same old concepts of the Shepherding/Discipleship Movement in order to sell it via a new packaging. The manipulators merely took multigenerational faithfulness and wrapped it around the old submission doctrine product like a clever new design on colorful paper packaging that boasts “new and improved” or “50% more.” The practice of old-fashioned submission doctrine is alive and well, even within the emergent church movement, evidenced in the error of “sinning through questioning.” This unquestioned submission to authority dulls critical thinking and is an highly desirable trait in followers of authoritarian and spiritually abusive groups (at least, according to the leaders of those groups).

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Return of the Daughters, Multigenerational Faithfulness and Uncle Ned

I take for granted that those who have linked over to this website for the first time will be familiar with the Vision Forum teachings that support multigenerational faithfulness. For those of you who are unfamiliar with the Vision Forum teachings regarding women and since I've referenced their importance in these most recent posts, I will offer this very brief overview of the teachings about following the family patriarch as well as the eldest male within one's extended family, a vital part of the multigenerational faithfulness concept. Please note that since criticism of the ideology, Vision Forum has re-written some of their history. They once prohibited voting for women, but apparently all of the advocates of this teaching have been voting all along. If you find that interesting, you can read more about it HERE and HERE. In the event that other documentation should disappear in the future, copy the links and go to the internet archive’s “Wayback Machine” to enter them in order to find them. Like the teachings on voting and engagements and courtships and such, things have a nasty habit of disappearing from the patriarchy websites.

Botkin’s Teachings
on Daughters and Wives

I have not discussed the Botkin gender material here in some time, so for the benefit of those who are not familiar with the book “So Much More,” (or the "Return of the Daughters" video) I will review some of the concepts taught in this book by the then teen daughters of Geoff Botkin. (Link HERE to read about Geoff Botkin’s history in a Bible-based cult just prior to his appearance at Vision Forum.) One can also glean a great deal of these teachings from the Botkin Daughters website, but in a nutshell, the belief system maintains that young women remain the “helpmeets” of their fathers until they are given in marriage. Until responsibility is handed off to the new husband, the young woman must serve the vision of the father. All of her endeavors must further the father’s vision in some way by aiding him in his life’s work. All members serve the family patriarch (the husband/father), and their life purposes revolve around the father like planets resolve around the sun in our solar system. If a young woman has her own endeavors, those activities must still accommodate the father’s needs and must somehow serve to help him fulfill his “kingdom mandate.” Any activity that seemingly does not meet an obvious need of the patriarch must be pre-approved by the father.

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Lack of New Testament Support for Multigenerational Faithfulness

In an earlier post, I listed all of the Scriptural “proof texts” that those from Vision Forum use to support their teachings on multigenerational faithfulness. As stated earlier, most of them pertain to the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants, detailing how the Israelites were instructed to relate to God under the Old Covenant. According to the writings of Paul and the Book of Hebrews, those under the New Covenant, whether Jew or Gentile, received a Better Covenant than the Israelites did. They lived under the law and were subject to all its penalties. Those who follow the New Covenant live under grace and are not subject to the condemnation and curses of the law, as Jesus paid all the penalties that sin demanded. The Old Covenant was the Gospel concealed, a foreshadowing of the Gospel, and the New Covenant was the Gospel revealed to us in the person of Jesus Christ. Until we come to faith, the Law serves as our schoolmaster or teacher, but when we receive the Holy Spirit by faith and experience new birth in the Spirit through Jesus Christ’s sacrifice, the Law becomes written on our hearts.

The Consequences of John's Sin....???

But if John gets it right, he had blessings for 1000 generations. Generational thinking is the KEY.
(Listen HERE.)

Again, I would like to draw attention to the idea that we can draw encouragement, instruction and wisdom from the Old Covenant, but it is only a foreshadowing. God showed grace and favor to the people of Israel. They rejected the Messiah because the minds of some of those in Israel’s hearts were hardened to the truth and their vision clouded. That produced an unexpected blessing for the Gentiles, for through the Jews’ rejection of the Messiah, grace was offered to the Gentiles. And Paul says in his Epistle to the Church at Rome that it is through the grace and mercy shown to the Gentiles that mercy might again be extended to the natural Israel. In the end, the grace and mercy is shown to all people, both Jew and Gentile. Each group who rejects the truth becomes God’s unexpected instrument of mercy to the other. God uses all things, working them together for good for the righteous and to bring Himself greater glory as all circumstances work perfection in us.

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Do New Testament Believers Become the New, Physical Seed of Abraham, Propagating the New Israel Nation of Christians Through the Womb?

Part of an ongoing discussion of multigenerational faithfulness.


Echoing the FBFI Resolution from 2006, when reviewing information on the Vision Forum concept of multigenerational faithfulness, I find it terribly interesting that those who promote the concept draw such little support for the more extreme edges of the view from the New Testament.


"Hyper-Calvinist" Replacement Theology

I would like to look specifically at those NT Scriptures in an upcoming post, but for now, I would like to briefly examine the significance that Vision Forum places on their own natural physical offspring as Abraham’s physical seed (spiritual eugenics). I do not believe that one can truly appreciate the concept of multigenerational faithfulness without appreciating the extreme neo-tribal, pietistic and separatist views of Vision Form, a “Protestant Exclusivism” that which Raymond Moore likened to spirit of the pietistic Massachusetts Bay Colony of the 17th Century. I believe that here we see the rationale as to why the Family Integrated Churches spend virtually no effort evangelizing the lost and focus only on “spiritual purification” of those who are already Christian, much like a spiritual cleansing of the Church in the same type of spirit that fundamentalist Islamic groups carry out “ethnic cleansing.” This is not the Gospel of the Kingdom of Jesus Christ.

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The Web of Multigenerational Faithfulness

(CLICK to enlarge graphic.)

In previous blog posts, I started to tackle this subject of multigenerational faithfulness. If you are interested in this topic and you have not read the prior posts, please go back and read them. I would have continued this, but I just didn’t want to have all of these things on my mind over the holidays. There are four previous posts:

• Multigenerational Faithfulness as Social Darwinism and Spiritual Eugenics

• The Multiple Layers of Multigenerational Faithfulness and the 200 Year Plan

• Doug Wilson’s Imprecatory Prayer as Multigenerational Faithfulness

• The Origins of the Ambiguous Term Itself

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Concerns About the Family Integrated Church Movement from the FBFI

From the
Fundamental Baptist Fellowship International
Deomination's website:

Resolution 06-03: Concerning the Integrated Church Movement

While recognizing that the family is under attack in our nation and in many churches today, and recognizing that choice to have (or not have) age-graded ministries is the prerogative of individual local churches as God directs them, the FBFI denounces the doctrinally errant and schismatic teaching characteristic of the Integrated Church movement for the following reasons:

• It encourages schisms in local church bodies by encouraging its adherents to change the theology and philosophy of the churches of which they are members.

• It does violence to local church authority, calling on local church members to leave their churches when the church does not bow the philosophical demands of the movement.

• It espouses an ecclesiology based upon the family that is not based upon the New Testament but rather is an adaptation of Old Testament patriarchy.

• It falsely lays the claim that the destruction of the family in the US is the solely the fault of age-graded ministries in local churches. We contend that this is a simplistic and therefore false accusation.

• It espouses a postmillennial theology that is contradictory to a dispensational understanding of Scripture.

• It is oddly inclusive, basing fellowship on a particular philosophy of ministry rather than the great fundamentals of the faith.


This movement is most prominently represented by Doug Phillips (Vision Forum) and R.C. Sproul Jr., among others.

See related article

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What Would Spurgeon Have to Say About the Emergent Church?

Note the written quote as cited in the video in the previous post.

(Emphasis mine)

From “The Soul Winner”
by Charles Haddon Spurgeon

Pages 239 -240:

“To Sunday School Teachers and Other Soul-Winners”

Sermon #1137, October 19, 1873
Metropolitan Tabernacle, Newington

“Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one converts him,
let him know, that he which converts the sinner from the error of his way
shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.”
James 5:19, 20.

There are some Truths of God which must be believed—they are essential to salvation—and if
not heartily accepted the soul will be ruined. This man had professed orthodoxy, but he turned aside from the Truth on an essential point.

Now, in those days the saints did not say, as the sham saints do now, “We must be largely charitable and leave this Brother to his own opinion. He sees the Truth of God from a different standpoint and has a rather different way of putting it—but his opinions are as good as our own—and we must not say that he is in error.” That is at present the fashionable way of trifling with Divine Truth and making things pleasant all round. Thus the Gospel is debased and another gospel propagated.

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More From Greg Koukl: Putting Your Knowledge Into Action

From Stand To Reason's
"Solid Ground" Newsletter Jul/Aug 07

Truth is a Strange Sort of Fiction Part V:
Christianity and Postmoderism: The Emerging Church

by Greg Koukl

• To be good ambassadors for Christ we must have a working knowledge of two things: the dangerous philosophies of men Paul warned of (Colossians 2:8) and the life-giving truth of Christ that is their antidote. This will help us recognize the dangers new cultural ideas present and keep the church true to the message of the Gospel even when employing new methods.
• Use the four watershed issues: the truth/knowledge equation, the authority of the Bible, the work of the Cross, and the Great Commission to understand where any movement within Christianity stands.
• Remember that Christians have an important ally in this war of ideas: reality. Human beings must live in the world God created.
• To reach our postmodern culture keep in mind the tactical question: “Why do we all feel guilty?” The answer to guilt is not denial, the answer is forgiveness. This is where Jesus comes in.

In the previous post, I mentioned how Eastern religions and how many within the emergent church essentially seek to rid themselves of the inconvenience of discernment though eliminating the veracity of reality. Make everything true and morally neutral, and your problems melt away. But why does morality present problems? Because we are all guilty of doing wrong, we all feel guilt, the dilemma of mankind. We feel guilty because we are guilty of imperfection. God is God and we are not. The sense, our sense, of this loss of transcendence haunts us all.

So how to get around this problem?

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Redefining the Constants

Years ago, I watched an episode of Star Trek Next Generation that featured the character named “Q.” This character was an all powerful being from a “continuum” of beings like him, yet they lacked omniscience, not understanding what it was like to see through the eyes of other beings, subject to their limitations. One particular Q who was named “Q” gets punished by his brethren, and he loses his god-like, special status. He chooses to live out his now moral life as a human, and he settles in with those on his favorite starship. Much of the story line involves his discovery of the limitations of his new, human form. And in keeping with standard sit-com rules, the writers restore his powers by the end of ths show, all the wiser for the experience.

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